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Anonymous
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I have heard more than once that there is no racism in brazil. Hard to believe when you know that at least half of the Brazilian population is black and there are very few black people that we see in the news: Pele, Xica, Benedita da Silva, Marina Silva, Gilberto Gil and a few more soccer players and musicians.
What's going on? Don't blacks have the same opportunities as white people? Does it make sense to call these disparities economic prejudice instead of racism?
What's your take?
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:44 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP
Ze
Junior Member
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Yes, there is racism in Brazil. It happens in a diferent way than in US, but it exists. There are some discussions on the old forum on this matter if it interests you.
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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:28 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP
Lucas
Newbie
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Yes, there is racism, but it's nothing compared to racism that occurs on USA.
If you are a good professional and owns a good mind you'll have the same opportunities. The problem is the majority of black people in Brasil does not have enough money to pay a good education.
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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh
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Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:14 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP
Joe Gahona
Newbie
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Quote: from Lucas on 12:14 am on Jan. 8, 2003
Yes, there is racism, but it's nothing compared to racism that occurs on USA.
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I'd love to hear how the racism in Brazil is different from the racism in the U.S. Can you think of any examples?
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Total Posts: 13 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:32 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP
Lucas
Newbie
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I've never heard about a brazilian Klu Klux Klan, did you?
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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh
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Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:46 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP
Ze
Junior Member
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There are no guetos.
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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:26 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
USCIT
Newbie
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Hmmm. Not trying to be argumentive here, but Lucas; you have the land owner and industrialist shooting the landless. Not the same as the Klu Klux Clan, but a similar mentality is depicted. Somewhat more tragic in my opinion as it isn't the landowner or industrialist who goes out and personally does the shooting, just minions they hire who are actually no better off than those they are killing.
And Zé, if a favela isn't a ghetto, what is it?
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USCIT
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Total Posts: 21 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:24 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
Lucas
Newbie
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We aren't talking about ilegal land invasions, it's a completely different matter.
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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh
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Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:08 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
Joe Gahona
Newbie
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Lucas,
I wasn't being sarcastic; I really want to know. I've read on this and the old forum things like "Brazil has racism, but it is different from the racism in the USA." Well, how is it different? Is racism not as much of a problem in Brazil? Are there programs like affirmative action? What is the percentage of blacks in brazil? People of European decent? Does this have an obvious bearing on who is a hard-core racist. (I don't know many latinos who are members of the Klan.)
Not asking for a book report, just curious what you mean by "different." Is racism projected in different ways, or by "different" do you (general "you" ) mean that it's not as much of a problem as it is in the USA? If a Brazilian asked me if Ireland had folk music, and if I said, "yes, there is folk music in Ireland, but it is different from the folk music of Brazil," that wouldn't explain a whole lot.
Thanks.
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Total Posts: 13 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:32 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
Lucas
Newbie
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hum... I tried to write in english, but I couldn't, sorry.
O racismo aqui é muito mais leve, com certeza. Nunca houve nenhum grupo radical racista significante, eles nunca foram proíbidos de freqüentar universidades, o exército nunca impôs restrições pra postos mais elevados, etc.
Racismo é crime aqui já há algum tempo, pode dar até cadeia...
A porcetagem da população que é negra deve estar beirando os 30%, 40%, mas não há tantos aqui no sudeste como nos estados lá pra cima.
No entanto os negros geralmente ganham menos e não existem muitos em cargos de chefia, eles têm menos oportunidades do que a parcela restante de população justamente por serem mais pobres e não poderem pagar por uma universidade. As faculdades públicas são as melhores, só que muito concorridas. Os que estudaram em uma escola privada e fizeram cursinho levam vantagem, infelizmente. Eles até estão cogitando criar uma cota nas universidades para estudantes de escolas públicas, mas não sei como esse projeto anda.
O fato dos negros serem mais pobres é um problema que vem se arrastando desde o fim da escravidão, eles acabaram ficando sem onde ir e tiveram que morar em qualquer lugar. Junta-se isso com a falta de assistência do governo e pronto.
O racismo não é um problema aqui, mas sim a falta de oportunidade para os menos afortunados...
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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh
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Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 11:15 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
fernandobn
Junior Member
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I think that racism exists because of the human nature, and yes I think that is more an economic prejudice issue, less racism as the races get melted. In Brazil even in favelas you see more mixed races than before. I cannot think a place in Brasil that one could say there lives only blacks or is a Black gheto, but you can tell which bairro lives only wealthy people.
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Fernando B.
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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:24 pm on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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I beg to differ with you Lucas on the degree to which racism is a problem in Brazil.
There were just two articles in O Globo stating that Afro-Brazilians and so-called 'mulattos' with the SAME education as so-called 'white' Brazilians earn less than them and are rarely promoted to higher positions even when their credentials are equal or even superior to 'white' Brazilians.
There was another article in A Tarde about 1 week ago about the discrimination in hiring at the malls and other shopping areas in Salvador.
Rascism is racism. It is not just individual discrimnation. It is a systematic denial and repression of the humanity of a group of people.
As an African-American who volunteers in Liberdade (Bahia) and Bangu (Rio) the self-esteem of Afro-Brazilians are worse than what African-Americans had in the early part of this century. I have a friend in Rio who is insulted much by members of her own family because she is the darkest of the family despite the fact that, by American standards, she is infinitely the most beautiful. And even she acknowledges that darker Brazilian women are easy prey for lighter men and mediocre white tourists because they want 'light babies'. Those are her words....not mine.
The racism of the Brazilian media (newspaper and television) is similar to that of the early white media in the United States in the 40s and 50s that only portrayed the pathologies of a people and not the human efforts and achievements.
Similar to these early white racist papers black coverage is only given to entertainment, sports and sensual women.
The images presented of a people determine, for many of them, their expectations in life. RACA (the Afro-Brazilian magazine) is trying to change this but it is a very small effort.
Brazilian racism is different than U.S. racism but as we say in the American South..."the lesser of two evils is still....EVIL!"
And unlike the United States...racism is not the only evil that affects the misery in Brazilian society. There is a classism that affects Brazilians of all colors and ethnicities. But the evil of one does not deny the evil of the other.
Peace
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:58 pm on Jan. 12, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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>>>And unlike the United States...racism is not the only evil that affects the misery in Brazilian society. There is a classism that affects Brazilians of all colors and ethnicities.<<<
EXACTLY. And the concept of classism is one that most Americans have no idea about. As an American, I had no idea what classism even was. It wasn't until my third trip to Brasil, in São Paulo, that I saw it happening firsthand to people before my eyes. It's a very cruel system, and for that reason alone, I am glad that I don't live in Brazil.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:51 pm on Jan. 12, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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Perhaps I'll clarify my view on that. Classism is very much a part of the American society. But the United States is a mega-producing country and the abundance of material things makes the separation between our classes not a separation between the 'haves' and 'misery' but between those who have very much, those who have something, those who are kinda comfortable, and those who survive.
But the labor class in America has to uproot their lives to survive just as those in the Sertão and other Brazilians Northeasterners flood Rio and São Paulo searching for a better life.
The greatest population growth in America has been the South and Southwest as poor Americans, made jobless by the shutdown of the coal mines and the loss of manufacturing jobs in the old Northeastern (American) cities have uprooted their families and fled to these areas in search of jobs.
American racism has so blinded whites in America that these whites who share the same problems as African-Americans refuse to unite in common cause (except in some instances) despite the fact that the rural whites, the rust belt whites, the suburban poor are victims of the same greedy, profit driven downsizing as the urban and Southern African-Americans.
I think by ''classism" you mean the term "elitism" (forgive me for interpreting your meaning). And yes...I personally feel (with my limited knowledge) that that is a major issue in Brazilian society.
At least from what I have experienced and the attitudes I have received here in Brazil because many 'white' Brazilians do not know that I am not Brazilian and as an African-American...we just ain't in the mood for taking that kind of sh-t from anyone.
I do believe that the multi-racial, multi-ethnic coalition that elected Lula shows the ability of Brazilians to unite across color and ethnic lines that we Americans have yet to match.
Racism in Brazil does not seem to be cultural as it is here in the States. "White" culture versus "Black" culture. My 'white' friends in Rio would be considered culturally African-Americans (and only 1 would be considered white) whereas when Elvis Presley started singing he was considered a sellout to 'white culture' by singing in a Black style.
I have an older lawyer friend in Rio who is purely of english ancestry but the only music that brings tears to his eyes is that of Jorge Aragão and others who play the 'roots of Samba'.
Peace
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:09 am on Jan. 13, 2003 | IP
stark114
Newbie
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<
Exactly what kind of crap did you go through? Do Black Brazilians just accept this type of treatment do to their alledged lack of self esteem?
Also, I've heard that interracial marraiges are not uncommon in Brazil. Is this not contradictory in some sense? Perhaps it is a case of "marrying up"? If a white or lighter skill Brazilian women marries a Black Brazilian man, is he usually better off financially?
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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:01 am on Jan. 13, 2003 | IP
Sick
Newbie
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In Latin America, race and class are inextricably linked, whereas in the US it is not. This link of class and race is sometimes given the name "polite racism". An oxymoron if there ever was one. In other words, the racism is not overt, as it is and has historically been in the US.
The class and race link has ramifications in regards to globalisation because in general Latin American nations are dominated by an ethnic minority (people who tend to be whiter than the average population and tend to be of mostly of European descent). Five hundred years of political and economic domination by this ethnic minority is coming to a head with globalisations free markets and democracy. A good example of the potential risks in all this is Venezuela where Hugo Chavez, who was legitimately elected, ran a campaign of demagoguery proclaiming Venezuela for the Pardos! and playing on class/ethnic tensions. It is easy to applaud the democracy but when a demagogue, playing on ethnic tensions, is elected and begins to implement plans to return the nation to it's "rightful owners" this can result in a backlash by the group generally targeted, thus the coup attempt. The US, leader of the globalizing forces, seems to have not taken this ethnic dynamic of some developing nations into account. Essentially, sudden democratization coupled with laisez-faire economics (economics even the first world nations reject) could actually be a recipe for disaster. I just hope Venezuela is the exception and not the rule.
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I have the best hair on this website.
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Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 5:50 am on Jan. 13, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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ALL BLACK BRAZILIANS ARE ASHAMED OF THEIR SKIN COLOR CAUSE ALL OF THEM WISH THEY WERE WHITE
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:03 pm on Jan. 15, 2003 | IP
stark114
Newbie
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Comments?
<
Margarida's story of racial discrimination is not isolated to the rural areas of the Northeast. Every day millions of Afro-Brazilians experience racism. From the family living room, where darker skinned children are often discriminated against, to Church pews, barbershops, classrooms, and the Halls of Congress, racism gnaws at the fabric of Brazilian society. The South American giant is often considered by foreigners and Brazilians as a racial democracy because of the high number of interracial marriages and seemingly easy banter between the races in every day life. Racial Democracy, coined by the Brazilian Sociologist Gilberto Freyre in early 20th century, is the theory that a history of extended miscegenation has created a cultural melange in which all races are equally valued. Nothing is farther from the truth in contemporary Brazil.
Race in Brazil is complex and distinct. Most Brazilians claim a mixed African, European, and indigenous ancestry. In practice, however, the weight of racism causes people to continually whiten themselves. For example, many morenos straighen their hair, people search for lighter-skinned marriage partners, and people identify themselves and each other with nicknames indicating a lighter skin tone, such as moreninho (browny), cafe (coffee), mulato, bronzeado (tanned), and escurinho (darky) to name a few. Rarely will someone assume an identity as Negro (black). Even those who call themselves black often have a hard time convincing other Brazilians not to identify them as moreno or mulatto. Calling someone black, for many, is still an insult.
Skin color profoundly influences life chances. According to a 1992 study by Carlos Hasenbalg and Nelson do Valle Silva, Brazilian nonwhites are three times more likely than whites to be illiterate. The numbers deteriorate in the high echelons of academic study. Whites are FIVE times more likely than people of mixed ancestry and NINE times more likely than Blacks to obtain university degrees. This pattern repeats itself in the work force where according to government statistics whites have access to the highest-paying jobs, earning up to 75% more than blacks and 50% more than people of mixed ancestry.(1) Brazil's prisons and youth detention centers are bursting at the seams. The vast majority of detainees and victims of police brutality are non-white Brazilians. Not surprisingly, health statistics paint a similar picture. For example, non-white Brazilian infants are almost twice as likely to die as their white counterparts.
Not all of the consequences of racism can be neatly packaged into statistics and charts. Effects on self-esteem are not easily measured. At a recent reflection group of Afro-Brazilian Women in Joao Pessoa, Paraiba, Cida painfully recounted the termination of her relationship. For several years, she dated Chico, a lighter-skinned black, and their color difference never created difficulties. When they got engaged, Chico's family exploded with his mother leading the attack, This little blackie is going to pollute our blood. Go and find someone who will purify our blood. Chico caved in and broke the engagement within days. Two years later Cida painfully asked in the group, How can you tell me not to feel inferior because of my color? Brazil's black movement struggles to address this question by introducing a positive black identity and fighting racism at all levels of society.>>
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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:54 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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The above was excerpted from a Brazzil magazine story that ran in November 1999.
The author is Kathleen Bond who works with the Maryknoll Mission Association of the Faithful in Brazil.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:11 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Ze
Junior Member
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No offense, but I find the first story highly suspicious, since politics aren't exactly that easy. You don't demoralize your opponent simply saying that he is black, there is quite a context missing here.
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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:40 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
fernandobn
Junior Member
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Ah! Complex Human Nature! I think that racism is a particular Case of Discrimination. Even having Portuguese, Italian heritage My Family and I suffered Discrimination in US. At work, I was treated as a 3rd Class professional...not being invited to meetings where all my team was, and other small things (this is not because of the language). At School my kids geting the thoughest reprimand than the american kids for similar childish things. I wrote a letter to the principal talking about the problem and I was called for a meeting with all staff because they were afraid that the letter could reach the School district. So, things like... You are prepy... you are popular and I am not!, you are a Loser! and so on. Human beings, start early tagging themselves as Losers, winners and etc. This, in my point of view, is wrong. We should strive to accept differences better! Because we never know the next day or next life!
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Fernando B.
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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 11:22 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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Racism and Discrimination are like the Dragon and the Lizard. An 'ism' is institutionally supported by society in the culture, laws, and accepted behaviour of its people.
Most American immigrants intially suffered 'racism', the Irish, the Poles, the Italians, etc. Because initially the false concept of a 'white' race only applied to WASPs. (white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant). Early Italians would refer to those of English ancestry as 'white people'.
(ref the book: HOW THE IRISH BECAME WHITE)
But as the social and political benefits of being 'white' became obvious subsequent generations of immigrant Americans accepted the WASPS ideals as the model, many changed their names, downplayed their ethnicness, and assimilated into 'whiteness'. In effect, these immigrants eliminated racism by simply joining the 'enemy'.
A tragedy. Outside of America the biggest supporters of the Irish were African-American leaders. The rally cry for the black nationalist Marcus Garvey "AFRICA FOR THE AFRICANS" was taken directly from the rally cry of the Irish "IRELAND FOR THE IRISH". No greater respect was given to an American than to Paul Robeson (African-American singer, activist, Rhodes Scholar) who visited Ireland often and with his baritone voice brought tears to the eyes of the Irish as he sang of their struggles against the 'whites'....the English.
Yet, the Irish in the United States were the main antagonists against African-Americans. The Irish Riots in my city, Philadelphia, killed hundreds of African-Americans and destroyed one of the largest black middle-class on the East Coast. Generally because the poor and uneducated Irish competed for the same low wage jobs as the African-Americans. But the 'whites' still had such low contempt for the Irish that, even today, the police vans are called PADDY WAGONS, 'paddy' being a derogative applied to the Irish.
The corruption of many Protestant religions to justify this racism, including Mormonism ("blacks are the children of Cain and the mark God gave on Cain was to make him black...according to the Mormons) was used to institutionalize the idea that not just England, but Europe, was the home of 'whites'. For many decades the Italians were still not considered to be white and faced a particular 'racism' well into the late sixties.
In my opinion, the greatest 'sin' of the Brazilians was to accept and perpetuate this false idea of race and accept not just the 'term' white but the social and political caste structure inherent in the American definition.
Without the caste structure the various names are meaningless. Even we African-Americans call ourselves light-skinned, dark-skinned, redbone, high yellow, etc. But, except in small instances, we ascribe no human potential to these titles. The achievements of 'light-skinned' Colin Powell (Secretary of State) or the 'dark-skinned Condoleeza Rice (head of the National Security Agency) are expected by us. I am a member of the National Black MBA Association. We would never choose a light-skinned person over a dark-skinnned person for president because of their color.
But when I talk to many, not all, but many of my friends here (Brazil) I can hear the judgement being made when a racial term is applied to other Brazilians. It is not just a harmless term to describe ancestry but a judgement of that ancestry and limitations put on the expectations of a particular individual.
I'll correct myself to say, maybe not all Brazil, but in my experiences. And I don't spend times at clubs and bars. I am in the houses talking to mothers and fathers and grandmothers and grandfathers.
Many of whom are praying for and distressed over their child selling themselves to depraved tourists on the streets of Pelourinho, Copacabana, etc.
Peace
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:48 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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IF YOU TAKE AWAY RIO AND SALVADOR BRAZIL BARELY HAS ANY BLACK PEOPLE AT ALL.THIS WHOLE THANG ABOUT BRAZIL HAVING THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION AFTER NIGERIA IS B.S.MOST OF BRAZIL IS EITHER WHITE OR MESTIZO.IF YOU GO TO THE SOUTH,THE CENTRAL WEST,OR THE AMAZON BLACKS ARE AN ENDANGERED SPECIES THERE ALMOST INVISIBLE.THE U.S HAS A WAY LARGER BLACK POPULATION THEN BRAZIL SO WHY ISNT THE U.S CONSIDERED THE THE NATION WITH THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION AFTER NIGERIA CAUSE IT MAKES MORE SENSE DONT YALL THINK.IN THE U.S THERE ARE CITIES THAT BLACKS MAKE THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION LIKE EAST L.A,ATLANTA,WASHINGTON DC,AND NEW ORLEANS JUST TO NAME A FEW BRAZIL DOSENT HAVE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK CITIES, TO ME BRAZIL IS LIKE THE SOUTH AMERICAN VERSION OF MONTANA MEANING WHITES ARE OVER 90 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.I LIVE IN NEW YORK AND I HAVE NEVER EVEN SEEN A AFRO BRAZILIAN ALL THE BRAZILIANS THAT I HAVE EVER MET ARE WHITE IAND I HAVE PASSED BY LITTLE BRAZIL A COUPLE OF TIMES AND THATS SAYING SOMETHING.
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:26 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Ze
Junior Member
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To Adrianerik:
Maybe it is because you spend your time in such specific enviroment, you lack something of the whole.
To MARQUESEAZY:
Actually those of pure african ancestry are more rare than those of pure european ancestry, but if you consider the mestizos black as in the US, Brazil does have a marjority of black.
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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:34 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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@Ze - Perhaps.
I don't know what you mean by 'specific environment'.
Nevertheless I'm not one to generalize (okay...maybe a little). I'm mostly in Bahia, Rio, Sao Paulo and Rondonia. My friends there span the range from poor young black kids to upper middle class white lawyers and engineers. My experiences are the same in all of those places. Actually in Rondonia the blacks are catching a bit more hell.
I can't speak for the other 22 states.
Would I find them to be different? Are the education rates, the upper level employment rates, the self-esteem among blacks, indians and mulattos higher in these other states?
I don't know and would expect that Brazil, like the United States, also has the same social complexities, and for every social hell have areas of social harmony.
Perhaps in April, when I have some time, I'll take some time to visit some others. I'm finishing a book THE DOGS OF BAHIA which is fiction but is influenced by some of my experiences.
Peace
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:41 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Ze
Junior Member
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Is your experience in these four states really similar?
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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:15 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Loco
Newbie
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In my opinion the black people from Brazil have some fault too about all this problem.
I can give you an example.
Most of the population of Rio Grande do Sul is white, almost 86%.
In Bahia almost 90% is black.
Rio Grande do Sul had the first black governator of Brazil and was the first state to gave freedom for the slaves. There is a black senator for this state too nowdays.
Bahia population only vote for white politians, blacks dont have power there.
The black people from Brazil dont complain, they are too passive.
But I dont think that Brazil is racist like US, here most of the problems is because of the money.
You dont see racism against japanese, jews, arabs....because most of they r not poor here.
And there is another thing, the black culture of Brazil is really strong, the white population of Brazil is almost invisible to the rest of the world.
Its really normal for a white brazilian go to other country and heard "how can you be brazilian? You are white" or "you have blond hair, you cant be from Brazil"
The white population of Brazil iss to big to be compared with the white minorities from other latin countries.
Some1 here wrote that the brazilian black population is small outside Rio and Salvador, this is not true, go to São Paulo, Minas or any Northeast state. Brazil have the second largest black population of the world.
Sorry for my bad english
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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:22 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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HOW DOES BRAZIL HAVE THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN THE WORLD WHEN BLACKS ONLY MAKE UP 6% OF THE POPULATION IN BRAZIL THATS A VERY SMALL MINORITY AND THATS FAR FROM THE MAJORITY.WHITES WAY OUTNUMBER BLACKS CAUSE WHITES IN BRAZIL MAKE UP 55% OF THE POPULATION.SO BRAZIL IS FAR FROM PREDOMINANTLY BLACK AND IT NEVER WILL BE EITHER.NOW OTHER LATIN COUNTRIES LIKE THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC,CUBA,AND PANAMA IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY CAUSE IN THOSE COUNTRIES BLACKS AND MULATTOES ARE THE MAJORITY CAUSE THEY MAKE UP OVER 70% OF THE POPULATION.SO THIS WHOLE THANG ABOUT BRAZIL HAVING THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN THE WORLD IS JUST A MYTH AND STATISTICS PROVE IT NOW HOW DID IT GET THIS MYTH BEATS ME.BUT PEOPLE DO OVER EXAGERATE THE POPULATION OF BLACKS IN BRAZIL AND I AM WILLINGLY TO BET THAT EVEN EUROPE HAS A LARGER BLACK POPULATION THEN BRAZIL.
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:47 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Sick
Newbie
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Ha. This thread is proving why racial classifications are so pointless.
First, Ze, not being picky here just a clarification. I think you meant "mulatto", not "mestizo". Mestizos are considered "hispanic" in the US (assuming you define mestizo as a european and indian mix).
Second, Marqueseazy, if you are using the Brasilian definitions of race, then what you say is technically correct and valid in that regard. However, North American definitions differ. The US uses the "one drop rule", meaning if someone is of so-called mix race, and displays about any stereotypical feature of the non-white mix, that person is considered non-white and labeled whatever the non-white mix is. Therefore, mulattos are generally considered black. So comparing statistics between the two countries is pointless, the definitions are different.
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I have the best hair on this website.
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Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:53 am on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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@Ze - Specifically in regards to the condition of black people the experiences are the same...or perhaps similar is a better word. The situation in Rio and Sao Paulo is similar to our major cities....not only is there the poverty and lack of higher education there is also the same anger (zangrado) typically found in urban settings where the disparity between the haves and have-nots is in your face every day and the need to control the anger of the have-nots can be manifested quite brutally. My work in Bangu with Jovems Pra Jovems and Caixa Da Supressa (two initiatives to help the youths there (mostly black but not all black) gives evidence of this.
Bahia and Rondonia are similar to our American South where we have many towns that are majority Black and the biting anger is not there but the same degree of exclusion as in Rondonia where I work with the GRUPO DE MULHERES NEGRAS DE RONDONIA.
But those are just my experiences. I am not qualified to write a book on racism in Brazil. I will make a hypothesis on what I expect to find based upon on how racism has manifested itself in various forms around this world.
But I am quite teachable. No pet agendas.
I would wish that I found none at all in Brazil. I like the people there of all ethnicities.
Feel free to offer other visions to me.
There always are several structural differences to the way racism manifests itself , rural versus urban, minority population versus majority population but when you get to the roots of the negative images that people are being fed and the allocation of resources, whether much resources or few resources their issues are the same.
@loco - You are addressing the symptoms and not the cause. Read WRETCHED OF THE EARTH by Frantz Fanon (and though it is a flawed work) it gives insight on how a pathology imposed upon a people is perpetuated by that people.
I have heard rumors of Rio De Sul excluding other Brazilians from migrating there. I don't state that as a fact but I've been told by friends in Rio. If that is not the case or only happened in small instances then my apologies.
In California they elected the first African-American mayor though African-Americans are only about 15% of Los Angeles. We African-Americans are far beyond this idea of 'firsts'. The question is whose interests an individual represents. Black skin does not make a person godly. When the Nazis initially rounded up the Jews, in some cases, they were aided by other Jew.
Finally this is just a reply to this thread. Racism is not the sole issue in Brazil. And blacks and mulattoes are not the only victims. That is a fact. My friends in a favela in Ilha called Cocota are struggling to survive...they are the loveliest people in the world and they are brancos.
Peace
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:09 am on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP
Ze
Junior Member
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To Sick: Thanks, we use the word "Mestiço" as mixed race, including mulato, and others, and so I thought that it was a cognate.
To Marqueseazy: There is no myth, this data was aquired in the last census, 6% think themselves as black, and I-don't-remember-the-number-but-know-it-is-big are "mestiços" which we use as a politicaly correct word for mulato on statistics.
To Adrianerik: There is one type of racism that I think that you will find stronger in Rio and São Paulo where you work, it is against "Nordestinos". Have a good look on it, and see if it isn't true.
(Edited by Ze at 9:26 am on Jan. 17, 2003)
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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:23 am on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP
ELEGANTGENT
Junior Member
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ADRIANERIK, WHAT TYPE OF WORK DO YOU DO?
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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:39 pm on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP
Patinho
Junior Member
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Adrianerik-
I can kind of verify Ze's last statement about "Nordestinos". I thought that the States were divided because of the whole civil war thing, but Brazil is even worse.
For Example: I bought some portuguese lesson cassettes a few years ago. My Carioca freind found this interesting and wanted to listen while we were in the car. Upon hearing that the teacher on the tape had a Northern accent... she ejected the tape and threw it out the window. I could not beleive she did that. She said "That's not portuguese.... I'll teach you portuguese."
Since all of the portuguese influence I had so far was form the Nordeste, she made it her mission to rid me of that accent and replace it with a Carioca one. Now I tend to speak a mixture of both places along with my horrible, but getting better American accent.
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"Quem quer viver faz magica"
--Guimaraes Rosa
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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:33 pm on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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I have no doubt of the bias against Nordestinos but elitist bigotry should not be confused with racism which infects the educational material, religion, the judiciary laws, etc while elitist bigotry can be a regional bias, similar to the past disdain of Northern 'yankees' against the American South...something that has only begun to change in recent years.
It's also interesting that the heart of Carioca culture is not native Carioca but imported from the Nordeste...from the white clothing at Revellion, to Carnaval (initiated by Nordestinos or the children of Nordestinos at Manguiero), to the celebrations to Iemanja on Copacabana on New Year's Eve.
Three of my closest friends are of European ancestry from Rio De Sul and they all came to Rio De Janeiro and married the daughters of Nordestinos.
Viva Brazil! but God Bless the Nordestinos. My family is from South Carolina (southern state in the United States) and we were dirt poor and called 'country' by the Northerners (the equivalent of the Cariocas and the Paulistas). I know of the struggles of the Nordestinos and relate to them.
@elegantgent - You can go to my web site at "http://members.aol.com/adrianerik for information on what I am doing. I don't believe in being anonymous on web sites. Love me or hate me I don't hide 'cause I can handle myself.
We (myself and friends) have free english classes, teach web site development, are beginning to assist groups that are trying to help the disadvantaged score higher on the vestibular and recently are beginning to sponsor the tuition to the Faculdade for women in Rondonia. (this is a new effort that is not fully developed).
There are some initiatives in the sciences, mathematics and business development that are possibilities. There are many African-Americans who initially come to Brazil as tourists but find similarities to our former oppression in the United States and what is happening in Brazil and wish to do more than take advantage of the disadvantaged. So we attempt to channel African-American resources to viable areas in Brazil that are serious. We've submitted proposals to Escola Criativa Do Olodum to work with their kids and that is being considered also.
We are focused on Afro-Brazilians but not exclusively. You cannot ignore misery because of someone's color or ethnicity.
Peace
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:02 pm on Jan. 18, 2003 | IP
Ze
Junior Member
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Adrianerik, those are not the heart of carioca culture, they are an integral part of brazilian culture, altough their origin is in nordeste.
Don't close your eyes, the prejudice against "Nordestinos" is racism.
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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:42 pm on Jan. 18, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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Okay....I won't argue the point. It really doesn't matter what is the exact motive when a person is firing a gun at another person. Only that, regardless, the other person has to protect himself/herself.
If you slap a man because he is black or slap a man because he is a Nordestino we still have to teach that same man not to worry about WHY he is being slapped but how to resist...how to protect...how to defend...
It is such an ironic situation in Brazil because so-called 'brancos' have not created such an awesome civilization that they should be thumbing their noses at anyone.
But then that is the other complication of Brazilian society. With the Brazilian definitions of 'brancos' 'pardos' 'pretos' 'caboclo' 'mestizo', etc the sin of racism is able to be manifested in various layers in Brazil. My 'bronzada' friend in Ilha (in Rio) is insulted by her 'cinnamon' Tia (aunt) because she is the darkest in the family. I had no idea what she said until I saw the tears in her eyes and she explained the insult.
The whole idea of racism and silly racists is so foolish.
We hope to number their days.
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:05 pm on Jan. 18, 2003 | IP
Loco
Newbie
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The name of the state is Rio Grande do Sul, not Rio do Sul.
There is no law against migration here.
Many people from the south region states get worry about the "nordestinos" because of what they heard from "paulistas" and "cariocas".
Many people from São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro usually say that the nordestinos are destroying their cities and they are all dirty and dangerous.
The brazilian media sometimes is like the foreing media, they only show poor and bad things about the northeast region...or they show only big parties and naked people, in the same way that foreing media shows Brazil.
People from the south of Brazil are ignorants about the northeast, Im from Santa Catarina and now I live in Rio Grande do Sul, I can say that 90% of my friends hates people from northeast but they are not racist against blacks from here.
The south and the norteast are the extremes of Brazil, one is white and "rich" compared with the rest of the country and the other is black and poor.
But its hard to understand how some people from Rio can be so racist sometimes, they live in a city where all the races and cultures of Brazil get mixed, where many people from others states of Brazil lives and people from all the world go visit.
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SEI LÁ
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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:08 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
Patinho
Junior Member
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Can't we all just....... get along?
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"Quem quer viver faz magica"
--Guimaraes Rosa
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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:34 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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@Loco - And the black woman who was elected there. Does she challenge this bigotry of the 'gauchos' or does she keep quiet.
Some of my Carioca friends have told me stories of what happens when certain people try to migrate to the south. I'm told that its partially economics and partially regional and or racial.
For example....a poor Italian immigrant with no money would be welcome but a Nordestino would be asked to leave the town.
Of course..this is illegal. According to the Brazilian constitution poverty is unconstitutional.
Que será...será.
Are there many in Rio Grand de Sul who still want to secede from Brazil?
@Patinho - "Power yields nothing without a demand" (Frederick Douglass)
We cannot plant the seeds of apathy every day and hope to see change the next morning.
That is a lesson we Americans learned in 1776. We should teach others our history.
Peace
(I think someone is trying to attack my computer...have to deal with that).
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:45 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
Patinho
Junior Member
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"Without struggle, there can be no progress."
--Fredrick Douglass
Thought maybe that applied too.....
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"Quem quer viver faz magica"
--Guimaraes Rosa
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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:55 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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MOST NORDESTINOS ARE NOT BLACK BUT MEZTIZO THE AMERICAN SOUTH HAS WAY MORE BLACKS THEN BRAZIL'S NORTHEAST. I WOULD EVEN GO AS FAR TO SAY THAT ATLANTA HAS A LARGER BLACK POPULATION THEN SALVADOR WILL EVER HAVE IF YOU'VE BEEN TO BOTH CITIES THEN YOU KNOW I AM TELLING THE TRUTH
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:48 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
Loco
Newbie
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What black woman?
I dont know about this stories.
Many people from Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina, Parana and São Paulo wants to secede, but they are not the majority.
"That is a lesson we Americans learned in 1776. We should teach others our history."
You should learn about brazilian history too and you could know why Rio Grande do Sul wanted to secede, I think you would be in the "gaúchos" side.
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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:57 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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Ma bad! (my mistake). I assumed that the first black governor of the state was a woman.
I am aware of some of the history of the Brazilian south. I don't think that I ever would be considered a supporter of the secession of the south.
There are many fundamental differences between the development of the South and that of the central and North of Brazil. The greatest advantage has been the massive land grants given to the Germans and Swiss in 1824 and later to the Japanese and Poles.
While the those of the Sertão and freed Africans were given nothing. Many Africans are descendants of the greatest cattle herders in Africa and were quite cabable of developing their own cattle-raising industries. As a matter of fact....though they were not slaves...many of the early 'gauchós' workers were these runaway Africans.
But the rulers decided to Europeanize the South thus giving an advantage to foreigners while native Brazilians were being killed just to have the same opportunity at land.
And much of the gauchos reputation for fierceness and independence was as a result of the border wars with Spain. However it was the spanish who ensured the protection of the christian indian missons at the time. It was these missions who first introduced the idea that a certain type of agriculture and cattle could be raised there.
However, the way was cleared for the later european immigrants with the complete destruction of these seven missions.
This was an advantage 'given' to the South not earned by the South. Therefore I would never support any idea of their secession from Brazil.
I do honor the achievements of the South AFTER they were given this advantage. Very efficient...very productive.
Peace
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:08 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Loco
Newbie
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Rio Grande do Sul wanted the secession because of many things.
My english is not good, so I will write in portuguese.
Você sabia que antigamente o Nordeste era rico e o Sul era pobre?
O Rio Grande do Sul lutou por causa dos altos impostos ao charque daqui enquanto os concorrentes da Argentina e Uruguai ganhavam o mercado brasileiro com a ajuda do próprio Império.
Mas esse não foi o único motivo, havia também o fato de os gaúchos serem sempre mandandos aos campos de batalha na primeira linha e em maioria, e o Império não ajudava em quase nada.
O Rio Grande do Sul também lutou pela liberdade dos negros, aqui os escravos nunca foram tratados da maneira como ocorreu no resto do Brasil. Claro que depois da guerra o Império Brasileiro ordenou que os negros se tornassem novamente escravos mas anos antes de a escravidão acabar eles já eram livres aqui, mesmo isso sendo ilegal.
Os gaúchos também lutavam pela formação de uma república, queriam o fim do Império.
Tenho muito respeito pelos cariocas e pela cultura deles, mas eles não podem falar nada dos gaúchos porque o Rio de Janeiro sempre estive no centro das atenções do governo e sempre se mantiver ao lado dele, foram passiveis aos mandos e desmandos.
A colonização do RS,SC e PR não foi fácil, o Império só deu terras para os primeiros imigrantes, e ainda por cima no meio de florestas, sem quase nenhuma ajuda.
O resto do país pode falar muita coisa ruim sobre o RS, mas eles nunca lutaram a favor da liberdade dos negros, contra o império e a favor da democracia como ocorreu em 1962.
Quando eu morava em SC também não sabia muito sobre a História do Rio Grande do Sul e também achava os gaúchos um pouco idiotas, mas depois que vim morar aqui aprendi muita coisa e posso dizer que eles são os mais politizados e preocupados com os rumos do país.
Numa recente pesquisa feita em todos os estados do Brasil os gaúchos ficacaram no topo da lista entre os que mais tinham orgulho de ser brasileiros, só perdendo para o habitantes do Distrito Federal.
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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:53 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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@Loco - You are quite correct. That much I know. But, in my opinion, much of the confict between South, North and Central has been business interests battling business interests and not because of a belief in the ideals of liberty, freedom and brotherhood.
The North hated the South because the idea of paying free men to produce goods and services challenged every institution of slavery in the North.
When the United States ended slavery in 1865 it was not because of any love for African-Americans but as a political and military leverage against the war with the South.
But I am not an expert on the the Brazil south.
From what I here there are areas that are very conservative and right-wing and then there are areas that are left. Is that true?
And though the South supported Vargas did they not also support the coup and the rule of the generals?
I am asking. I don't know these things.
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:07 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
BRENT
Newbie
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Adrianerik said: "But I am not an expert on the the Brazil south."
You're not an expert on the U.S. south, either. There are far more reasons that the North hated the South other than the ONE you state.
Inevitably when one talks about slavery, someone moans how "it wasn't ended because of any love for blacks." Of course desire for equality factored in. To say otherwise is straight-up ignorant.
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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:18 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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Did you get lost bitch! Go back to your other silly posting site on your upcoming trip with your other scum!
I was referring to the North of BRAZIL you moron!
The antagonism was the reverse of the United States, as was the slavery.
So now...get lost.
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:11 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
BRENT
Newbie
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You should be more clear with your writing. That I "misunderstood" your post is your fault, not mine.
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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:29 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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I don't understand how anyone can give extact numbers on how many Black Brazilians there really are, when the way in which you conduct your census is soo blurred. I mean you have a section for people who are neither black nor white lol. So to say the numbers are small is not correct just as to say the numbers are high. No one really knows and that's very sad. Brazil has so many labels for their people especially if they aren't white. It's really a shame and I see Brazil as worst than the United States on this matter. So I can't dispute it one way or the other, because your own government can't agree. Which leads me to believe that life as a Black in Brazil must be pretty shitty if they are hoping everyone is anything but a Morena. Thank God for Spanish countries!
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:14 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Liz
Newbie
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JOE GAHONA, LUCAS is right.
Racism is different in Brazil and a subtle breeze if compared to the tornado of what we see here in the USA.
AND IT'S A SHOCKING DIFFERENCE. I FEEL REALLY BAD LIVING IN THIS ANIMOSITY ENVIRONMENT.
When in Bahia, where the population is predominantly black, I have never been treated differently or badly for being white. HERE I AM.
In the southernmost parts of Brazil, where the European culture predominates, no black guy will be treated differently for being in a restaurant that has only white people.
On the other hand, here, the first doctor that I chose was black, and so were his nurses and all of the patients. Unaware of those strong and horrible habits of racism practiced in everyday situations, only after half an hour in the waiting room I realized why everyone looked at me with an angry face: I was the only white person there.
AGAIN, I AM NOT SAYING RACISM DOESNT EXIST IN BRAZIL. YES, IT DOES. But it's only a little spice in the food. In the USA it seems to be the main dish.
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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:58 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Loco
Newbie
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É até ironico isso, pois muitos ditadores do Brasil eram gaúchos ou estudaram no Rio Grande do Sul, mas quando em 1962 o exército tentou chegar ao poder a população gaúcha foi contra.
Por muito pouco o estado não entrou em guerra com o resto do país, muitas pessoas começaram a se alistar e a montar barricadas.
Quando souberam que o exército mandaria aviões para bombardear Porto Alegre milhares de pessoas ficaram em volta do palácio do governo em vigilia.
O exército só não conseguiu destruir porque os soldados gaúchos não deixaram os aviões voarem.
Esse acontecimento ficou conhecido como a Campanha da Legalidade e o Brasil continuou uma democracia por mais dois anos, depois os militares chegaram ao poder.
Essa é uma história que poucos brasileiros conhecem.
Os paranaenses e catarinenses são mais moderados, hoje em dia esses estados apesar de não serem governados pelo PT são aliados do Lula. Já o RS é bipolarizado, de um lado estão os petistas e do outros os anti-petistas. Apesar de o PT ter nascido em São Paulo foi no Rio Grande do Sul que ele ganhou força, apesar de aqui os petistas serem mais radicais enquanto no resto do país são moderados.
Os gaúchos ficaram a favor de Vargas porque estava cegos pelo fato de um deles ter chegado ao poder, hoje em dia muitas ainda se orgulham mas conheço mais gente ainda que se envergonha. Apesar de tudo eu acho que o Vargas teve algumas coisas boas.
Mas quam voce acha que estava certo? O sul que preferiu o trabalho livre ou o nordeste que preferia o trabalho escravo...?
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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:03 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Liz
Newbie
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OH, JOE GAHONA, LUCAS IS RIGHT FOR ONE MORE REASON ... HE IS A "MAC INTOSHICO"!!!! I've never net a Mac Intoshico that was not a nice guy. :^) Now, speaking seriously, ...
JOE, YOU DON'T NEED TO TELL BRAZILIANS TO STUDY THEIR ORIGINS. They do it a lot better than many Americans. Even more so if we consider the lack of infrastructure, money and education level of the country => THERE'S AN IMPRESSIVE PART OF THE POPULATION IN BRAZIL DEDICATED TO THE AFRO-BRAZILIAN RELIGIONS, TO CAPOEIRA, TO SAMBA, TO BRAZILIAN DANCES, SO MUCH SO THAT A LOT OF THEM END UP BECOMING FAMOUS HERE AND TEACHING THOSE AFRO-ORIGIN CULTURE PRACTICES.
On the other hand, the only black manifest that we can see bunches here in the USA is the rap music that, frankly, lacks a real sense of art and creativity, something that is quite abundant in all Brazilian arts.
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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:06 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Liz
Newbie
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LOCO, ISSO AI', DA' DE RELHO!!!
(and if you need any help with your English, it will be a pleasure to help you, to the extent and limit of my English knowledge, of course, but it would be interesting to have all the guys being able to read what you've said)
Actually, I bought some interesting books about the southern Brazilian history, and in English. In case anyone is interested, I can tell you the title, Publisher, year ...
TELL US MORE, LOCO!
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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:24 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Liz
Newbie
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Well, guys, I guess we are talking about two totally different worlds and cultures and, as it seems, there's no way to compare them with the intent of saying one or the other is better or worse. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.
As for self-esteem of black people in Brazil, there's an interesting issue. Brazilian black women look like they are proud of being black. And that is something to compliment. They are beautiful for what they are. They don't have, for instance, the necessity to get they hair straightened out each and everyday.
Just a thought.
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"Tudo vale a pena se a alma não é pequena"
Fernando Pessoa, Portuguese Poet
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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:51 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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Cleary you have NEVER lived in America the good ole' USA. Blacks aren't treated bad in restaraunts anymore, what era are you speaking of? Blacks are a thriving people in America, the average Black in a America is educated, attends college, and is middle class. The numbers are not huge like in Brazil between the rich, middle class, and the poor. I think you are sorely mistaken about race relations in America. I can't speak on the racial issues in Brazil, because I am not there and have never lived there. I have visited and I have been inside your ghettos and it ain't pretty. I've even interviewed some up and coming wannabe rappers inside the shantytowns. In fact the story I worked on was in the american hip-hop magazine Vibe.
Whoever said that rap music isn't creative is truly lacking in the history of the music. First of all rap music and hip-hop is two different things. Second of all Rap music is not a SOLEY a Black invention, in fact the Puerto Ricans in the Bronx helped this creation come about along with Jamaican artist known as Reggae artist. Please research before speaking so uninformed. And Hip-Hop is seen as a culture it has reached far more people than I know Bossa Nova and Samba has. You go to any corner of this beautiful earth and you will find the influence of Hip-Hop. From Bosnia, Isreal, Japan, UK, India, and yes even Brazil, to Africa and so on. This music has joined more cultures together than any other kind of music. So before you so sarcastically disrespect a culture understand it. Again Hip-Hop and Rap music are not the same. And the music is extremely creative, with some very poweful artist. Lauryn Hill, Common, Erykah Badu, Nas, Jay Z, Biggie, Tupac, Jill Scott, Talib Kweli, The Roots, Dead Prez, Run DMC, LL Cool J, KRS1, 50 Cents, Eminem, Dr. Dre, Snoop, and the list goes on and on and on.
Lastly this isn't about whose better than anyone else. But clearly you ave no clue about the contributions that Blacks have made to the American culture. I am sure you are using something in your household invented by a Black American. For instance the lawn sprinker used to spray grass with water, ironing board, Guess who the "Real McCoy" was coined after, yep a Black inventor, the variation on classical music known as regime Black again, the perm or relaxer that women use to straighten their hair, yes a Black woman Madame CJ Walker, the sanitary belt which is known now as the seat belt in cars, to remove catarcts from the eyes, and so on. How about you go here and read some, just because you may not be educated on what contributions Blacks have made to this world besides music, sports, and movies you may be using. Essence Magazine, Ebony, Jet, Black Enterprise all exsisted way before Raca came out.
http://www.blackinventionsmuseum.com/
Again this all about educating ourselves.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:50 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
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Anonymous
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Not to mention Jazz musicians, the greatest of all time were all Black Americans. We could go on for days. I don't knock the contributions of Brazilians, but let's not be so hasty and speak ill about things we do not know. It's better to educate there are a plethora of webites on the internet to better educate all of us on different cultures. I am not sure of the racial climate with Black Brazilians, I've only read and heard stories, none of which I've witnessed first hand. I however have lived in America and this isn't the 1960's, we are at least trying to better ourselves and we have come a long way.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:55 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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Mark E. Dean was born on March 2, 1957 in Jefferson City, Tennessee. Dean knew from a child that technology would play a major role in his life and wanted to work for IBM. In elementary school, he excelled in math in the grades 1 to 4, and was taking the same math courses as the older children. Building his first computer, radio and amplifier during high school, Dr. Dean went on to obtain his bachelor's degree from the University of Tennessee, his Masters at Florida Atlantic University, and his Ph.D. from Stanford University. Dr. Dean has been working for IBM since 1980 and was named an IBM Fellow. He holds more than 20 US patents including three of IBM's original nine PC patents.
Dr. Dean's PC patents include those geared toward allowing people to add new devices to their personal computers - simplifying the way printers, scanners or graphics are added, or devising a technology friendly to vendors who build plug-ins. Many of his patents are in the area of new features such as a set of graphics so that elements - pictures on the screen - are cleaner.
Dr. Mark E. Dean is one of the scientists responsible for creating the computer technology currently being used in more than 40 million personal computers produced each year. In 1998, a team led by Dr. Dean produced the 1 GHz chip (which would be something like a Pentium 1,000 but faster), which contains 1 million transistors and will eventually be applied to microprocessors. The 1 GHz chip's potential is limitless
and he is a Black American haha. Ok I'm done I just wanted to prove a point. No one is better than or worst than we all contribute to the world good and bad. I know Brazilians has some the greatest writers of all time, and where would we be without the watches if a Brazilian hadn't invented the wrist watch and the list goes on.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:00 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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Oh and my response was to Liz. And there are Black women who don't have to get their hair permed or straightened as you say and besides the average Black perms her hair maybe 3 times a year. So I can see that as every other day haha! Cleary you are misinformed or I am misreading you. Also in America some of our White women get their hair permed or straightened from curly so it's not exclusive to Blacks, Latins do as well as Asians in America.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:05 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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I HAVE PROOF THAT AMERICA'S BLACK POPULATION IS WAY BIGGER THEN BRAZIL'S BLACK POPULATION FOR EXAMPLE BRAZIL ONLY HAS ONE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK CITY AND THATS SALVADOR BUT THE U.S ON THE OTHER HAND HAS ALOT OF PREDOMINANTLY BLACK CITIES LIKE EAST L.A,DETROIT,OAKLAND,ATLANTA,NEW ORLEANS,BATON ROUGE,WESTSIDE OF CHICAGO,BALTIMORE,WASHINGTON DC,ANNAPOLIS,PARTS OF NEW YORK NOW THATS JUST FROM THE TOP OF MY HEAD PLUS I HAVE VISITED THOSE CITIES SO I KNOW AND ANOTHER THANG CITIES LIKE NEW YORK AND MIAMI HAVE A LARGE CARIBBEAN POPULATION AND WE ALL KNOW THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE FROM THE CARIBBEAN ARE EITHER BLACK OR MIXED AND VERY FEW OF THEM ARE WHITE.SO THERE IS MY PROOF THAT AMERICA HAS MORE BLACKS THEN BRAZIL.I WOULD EVEN GO AS FAR AS TO SAY BRAZIL HAS MORE JAPANESE AND ITALIANS THEN BLACKS
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:02 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Loco
Newbie
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Oh my God!
Do you know why only 6% of the brazilians are black? Because the government ask they!
Many people can be black and say that they arent.
Race in Brazil its a really crazy thing, I even saw white people sayng that they were "morenos".
But many people in Brazil try to be "more" white" than black.
Lets think....6 million of europeans came to Brazil since 1825, in this time 4 million of africans "came" too.
Many of the europeans had sex wirh black woman but they had white children with white girls too.
2 millions of the blacks died few years later, most of them were men.
The white and "pardo" population are the predominant in Brazil.
If you use the ONE DROPP OF RULE in Brazil you could say that Brazil have the second bigest black population of the world, but if you dont use it you could only say that Brazil have the second bigest population with "black oring".
Brazil is 50% white, 40% pardo, 6% black, 3% yellow and 1% others (Im not sure if it is right).
But I believe that Brazil is 40% white, 40% pardo, 16% black and 4% others.
I read in a magazine that 30% of brazilians are pure white and 20% are pure black.
I dont know why we are talking about this...its too crazy to talk about races and numbers in Brazil....Im going to stop here...hehehehehhe
Eta...q locura!
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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:02 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Patinho
Junior Member
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Liz-
I think you are the same Liz that lives near me. I too see the prejudice that goes on here. Not just against one color, but everyone here seems very divided.
Sometimes not divided in a bad way.... maybe a cultural way, but more often than not, those cultures collide accidentally.
In our area it is very concentrated... and separated. Mixed race neighborhoods are rare.
This is a major problem in our city. There are a few others similiar to ours... Nashville and St. Louis are the first that I think of.
Anyway.. I agree with the "main dish" sentence. But I hope I can restore some of your faith by saying that not all of America is this bad. Our city is an exception
Of course, if this is not the same "Liz"..... then forget everything I just said.
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"Quem quer viver faz magica"
--Guimaraes Rosa
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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 1:30 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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@Liz - Please! Racism is manifested in Bahia by the almost completely white secondary schools in Bahia. By the almost completely white faculdades. By the fact that the low self-esteem in Bahia has a people that represents 80% of the population having little to no say in the government of that state.
Racism has nothing to do with how YOU are treated.
In the early days of the American south African-Americans were docile, sweet, friendly and smiled and welcomed everyone regardless of their race. The southern whites insisted that their 'darkies' (you call them 'neguinhos') were happy. They ALSO accepted their state of being second-class citizens without putting up a fight.
People can be friendly and still oppressed.
If there was not the pent-up anger among Afro-Brazilians you would not have had the success of Ile-Aye, Olodum, DiDa, the magazine RACA, grupo Stephen Biko, Ara-Ketu, Cidade Negra, the Diasporan Center in Pelourinho and many other spokespersons for the Afro-Brazilian pride and anger.
It was only until recent that the majority of 'blocos' in Salvador required a photograph so that all black people would be excluded from particpating.
In the United States when two black people meet each other and they are the only ones around they go out of their way to greet each other. You might now know this because you are white but I observe how in Brazil an Afro-Brazilian in a group of whites will drop their eyes or turn away from another black person when they meet them.
I really don't thing that many whites in Brazil appreciate the growing effects of all-white 'novelas', daily negative images of blacks in the newspaper, and the lack of role models and what this has done to the black population in Brazil.
I'll repeat...the last two reports out of O Globo will disagree with you. Afro-Brazilians (including so-called "mulattoes" with the same education and level of skills are still being excluded from managerial positions and still being paid approximately 65% of the salary of whites.
I also don't know which black doctor you went to or which city you were in but I find it difficult to believe that African-Americans in a doctors waiting room find the time to show 'hate' towards you for being white. ALL OF THEM. I know my people and that is difficult to believe. On the streets of Philadelphia homeless whites (yes...we have many of them) will beg from a black person before begging from a white person because we tend to have softer hearts towards towards the disadvantaged. In out meetings, African-Americans always discuss how we are sometimes more accepting of other people (whites and asians) than even our own people.
But if you did really experience this then let me apologize for the behavoiur of a small part of my people. Try it again. There are many white Brazilians in Philadelphia and we have surrounded them with friendship. They always attend our concerts, poetry readings and festivals. And we African-Americans are always amazed to meet 'white' people who are funky and have a sense of culture.
Peace
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:36 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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@Liz - I just read the second page of your posts and I have no words.
You are naive and know little about African-Americans and less about american society and show signs of the same shallow racism as whites here.
The Afro-Brazilians activists use the African-Americans as a model for organization. We have been successful in combating racism. The theme of Carnaval in 1994 - was BLACK AMERICA - LAND OF BLACK DREAMS.
Afro-Brazilians want to be doctors, lawyers, nurses, CEOs, architects, engineers, not only known for waving their asses for sordid tourists and playing the berimbau and selling acarajé for 1 real.
And one of the biggest industries in Brazil is 'mega-hair'. You know what that is.
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:03 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
stark114
Newbie
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<
Can any Blacks is Brazil speak on this? I've heard the opposite it true. Liz, if white skin is preferred in Brazil, why would you expect poor treatment from Bahians?
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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:15 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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Marqueaseazy, the only proof you have is your oppressive Brazilian government. The truth of the matter is that the Unitd Nations has told Brazil that they lack an effective system to monitor the different ethnic make-ups in their census queries. For example in the United States they have added "Bi-racial" which means a person made-up of two racial groups, on the side the person is asked to print which two racial groups their parents are. Hence Black and White, or Puerto Rican and Black or even Japanese and White. This box isn't for just people who are mixed with Black. In Brazil the call "bi-racial" people "pardos" meaning NOT Black or White, which is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE. If not neither than how the hell did you get here. It was a big convern of everyones in the last census in the United States that people would choose bi-racial" who weren't by the government standards. What they then say is your biological parents, and grandparents thats it. Now I have you know that the average Black person in the United States has WHITE in thier family. This is a known fact. I think you are really speaking out of your ass Marqueseazy.
The truth of the matter is Brazil's numbers can't be trusted with a faulty system for recovering them. So perhaps talking about race in Brazil like always is futile because some of you seem to believe it doesn't exsist, while your Blacks there are far less educated and given a fair chance than any other Black in other countries. In fact your shit tetters on third-world treatment. I'd like to see some of money borrowed from American Banks used to get a proper system. We are such bad people we US citizens, but yet in still Brazil borrows to no end.
To Patinho, one small ass town is NOT indicative of all of AMERICA. You need to get out more. There are parts of America that is void of any Whites, same goes for Blacks etc. I still feel most of you speak out of your ass and have never been past your "little town" mentality.
Racism, classism, and every other ism exsist in Brazil and for a country the prides itself on "racial harmony" you sure do have a lot of poor, and your governments lack to prove to outside countries that you indeed are the paradise of racial harmony, it's as crock of bull. The daspareties between the rich and poor is so devasting I pray your economy never gets a depression. Cause then the truth shall be set free and you will see just how racial harmonyed you really are.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 6:02 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Liz
Newbie
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Hey, it looks like only Patinho KNOWS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, BECAUSE HE LIVES IN THE SAME CITY.
Besides, yes, as one of you said "maybe I didn't read what Liz said". You definetely didn't.
RACISM AGAINST BLACKS, AGAINST WHITES, YELLOWS OR REDS, ARE ONLY DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE SAME POISONED UGLY COIN THAT SHOULD BE BURNT LIKE THE RING IN THE LORD OF THE RINGS MOVIE.
PATINHO KNOWS WHAT I MEAN. I AM TALKING ABOUT HAVING FELT PREJUDICE AGAINST ME, MYSELF, A WHITE PERSON, FOR BEING IN A PREDOMINANTLY COLORED POPOLATION IN TOWN, AS WELL AS IN RESTAURANTS AND MEDICAL CLINICS, SOMETHING I NEVER FELT WHERE I LIVED IN BRAZIL.
ABOUT BRAZIL:
If there's little black population, there's little white people as well. EVERYONE IS A ONE AND ONLY MIXED RACE. Almost everyone has a mixing of race in their families in Brazil. I AM NOT GUESSING. I HAVE SEEN THAT LIVING THERE FOR MORE THAN 3 DECADES. In all social levels.
THAT IS MY EXPERIENCE. MAYBE NOT YOURS.
AGAIN, PATINHO KNOWS WHAT I MEAN BECAUSE HE LIVES IN THE SAME PLACE.
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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:49 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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Liz, you are a sad case. You still use the word "colored" in America and you wonder why some may not like you. No Black person wants to be called "colored" that shit went out with the civil rights uproar. Get a clue, read a book, and if you are going to live in the America at least have the respect to learn English both written and spoken. In this country every person needs to defend him or herself. Why should someone else speak for you, you obviously made assumptions. If you would've said "from where I live, this is what goes on" no you made sweeping statements about all of America. Don't speak where you can't backup. I honestly don't think you have a clue and your sentences are incoherent to me.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:08 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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To be honest everyone is making good points. But you have to know people are going to defend where they come from. I would still like to hear from a Black Brasilian and not a White one on this matter. It would seem to me that only they can really answer our questions. But this is cyber space so anyone can lie and say what they are. I guess when I go to visit I will get a better idea of what's the energy like in Salvador da Bahia.
Everyone has argues thier sides nicely. Just keep the insults down. I would hope we are all adults on here.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:20 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Loco
Newbie
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Brazil racism is not like the US.
Why we dont have Ku Klux Klan (I dont know the name of this shit) here?
Why we didnt had apartheid here?
Our "apartheid" is social, not racial.
Most of white brazilians dont hate blacks, buy they get worry if they find one in a empty street at night.
You dont know how is to live in one of the most dangerous country of the world, and in the jails blacks are the majority because of their social problems.
I know that there is some brazilians who hates blacks, but there is no strong racist groups here, I only heard about skinheads in São Paulo...
Why there is no strong racist group in a country with more whites than England and the second black population of the world?
Its should have one...at least...
You can say a lot of things...but Brazil racism is not like the US one.
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SEI LÁ
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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:54 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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THIS IS FOR THE GUEST WHO WAS REFERRING TO ME FIRST OFF I NEVER SAID THAT BLACK AMERICANS WERENT MIXED WITH WHITE IN I KNOW ALOT OF BIRACIALS SINCE I AM ONE MYSELF I AM BLACK/BRITISH,AND NATIVE AMERICAN WHAT I WAS SAYING IS THAT OUR COUNTRY'S POPULATION OF PEOPLE OF AFRICAN DESCENT WAY OUTNUMBERS BRAZIL.HERE'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE BRAZIL'S BLACK POPULATION IS SO SMALL THAT BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS DONT EVEN EXIST THERE I CAN GUARANTEE BRAZIL DOES NOT HAVE THEIR OWN VERSION OF HARLEM BUT IN AMERICA MOST MAJOR CITIES HAVE ONE BUT YOU'LL BE HARD PRESSED TO FIND ONE AND BRAZIL IS THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT I HAVE BEEN TO THAT HAS BLACK PEOPLE BUT NO BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS.AMERICA HAS THEM,LONDON TOO,AND EVEN HAVANA,CUBA HAS PREDOMINANTLY BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS I KNOW SINCE I VISITED THERE.ANOTHER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AMERICA AND BRAZIL IS THAT IN AMERICA A MIXED PERSON WILL STILL ACKNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS BLACK BUT IN BRAZIL A MIXED PERSON IS ASHAMED OF HIS BLACK BLOOD AND WILL DENY HE HAS ANY AND WILL EVEN TRY TO PASS FOR WHITE.I AM MIXED BUT I STILL PUT DOWN BLACK ON ANY APPLICATION FORM BECAUSE I EMBRACE MY BLACK HERITAGE I DONT TRY TO HIDE IT LIKE MOST BLACK BRAZILIANS DO.BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POINT IS THAT BAHIA IS THE ONLY PREDOMINANTLY BLACK STATE IN BRAZIL ALL THE OTHER BRAZILIAN STATES ARE PREDOMINANTLY WHITE SO OFCOURSE WHITES IN BRAZIL WAY OUTNUMBER BLACKS SO BRAZIL IS FAR FROM BEING THE COUNTRY WITH THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN THE WORLD I CAN NAME A BUNCH OF COUNTRIES WITH WAY MORE BLACK PEOPLE THEN BRAZIL AND HERE THEY ARE THE U.S,JAMAICA,HAITI,CUBA,THE BAHAMAS,TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO,BELIZE,PANAMA,COLOMBIA,AND THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC,ENGLAND,AND FRANCE AND THOSE COUNTRIES ARENT EVEN IN AFRICA.BECAUSE OF BRAZIL'S POLICY OF WHITENING THE POPULATION BRAZIL IS GONNA END UP LIKE ARGENTINA ONE DAY WHERE BLACKS WILL BE EXTINCTED FROM BRAZIL.DID YALL KNOW THERE WAS A LAW WHICH I THINK STILL APPLIES TODAY THAT EXCLUDES BLACKS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES FROM EMMIGRATING TO BRAZIL THATS WHY THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT ENCOURAGED EUROPEAN MIGRATION TO MAKE BRAZIL'S POPULATION WHITIER CAUSE THEY DIDNT WANT BRAZIL TO BECOME ANOTHER HAITI GOD FORBID THOSE RACIST WHITE POTUGUESE WOULD NEVER WANT THAT WAS THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT'S WORST NIGHTMARE TO HAVE A BLACK MAJORITY BUT I GUESS THEY FIXED THAT SINCE IF YOU GO BRAZIL TODAY YOUR MORE LIKELY TO SEE BLOND HAIRED BLUE EYED BRAZILIANS THEN A BRAZILIAN WITH BLACK SKIN.EVER WATCHED BRAZILIAN TELEVISION LETS JUST SAY ITS SO WHITE IT MAKES ABC LOOK LIKE BET LOL
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:18 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Jo
Newbie
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Guest: "So to say the numbers are small is not correct just as to say the numbers are high. No one really knows and that's very sad. Brazil has so many labels for their people especially if they aren't white. It's really a shame and I see Brazil as worst than the United States on this matter."
And this is one of my pet peeves about the U.S. Why in the world do we need to classify everyone according to "race"? I always write "human" in the blank for race as I think it's ridiculous to need to know for a driver's license, for example. There's a picture, for God's sake!
The last U.S. census was a problem because people who were nicely mixed didn't know what blank to fill in. I think Brazil's attitude toward race is healthier. People are polite to one another in nearly all cases, regardless of race. Not so in the U.S. Also, of course, Brazil never had laws on the books segregating according to race...at least to my knowledge.
I do sometimes see evidence of "marrying" white, though,....the idea of mixing with a lighter human to lighten children...is embedded in the culture and the culture of other Latin American countries as well.
But I also see pride in color. One African-Brazilian hairdresser told me she's proud of her color. I'm happy she feels that way. And another very well-educated, wealthy, very white Brazilian is proud that her father was a mix of Indian, African, Portuguese, and Italian.
I think mixes are great, healthy, and the only place for a question on race should be at the doctor's office where they need that information to know susceptibility to certain diseases.
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Total Posts: 8 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:26 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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THE BLACK RACE IS ALMOST NONEXISTENCE IN BRAZIL SINCE THE WHITENING OF BRAZIL WITH THE MASSIVE EUROPREAN MIGRATION OF THE GERMANS,PORTUGUESE,SPANIARDS,POLISH,RUSSIANS AND ITALIANS PLUS ADD THAT TO THE FACT THAT BLACK COUPLES ARE VERY RARE IN BRAZIL CAUSE 99.99% OF AFRO BRAZILIANS MARRY OUTSIDE THEIR RACE TO WHITE PEOPLE.AND WHEN THEIR KIDS ARE BORN THEY WILL GROW UP TO MARRY CAUCASIANS UNTIL THEIR AFRICAN ANCESTRY IS TOTALLY WIPED OUT THATS WHAT HAPPENED IN ARGENTINA AND THATS WHATS HAPPENING TO BRAZIL.THERE WILL BE ONE DAY WHEN THAT 6% OF BLACKS WILL TURN INTO LESS THEN 1% AS BRAZIL'S WHITE POPULATION JUST QUADRUPLES AND BRAZIL IS EASILY LATIN AMERICA'S WHITEST COUNTRY ALONG WITH ITS NEIGHBORING WHITE COUNTRY ARGENTINA.THE ONLY PREDOMINANTLY BLACK COUNTRIES OF SOUTH AMERICA IS THE GUINEAS AND THE CARIBBEAN COAST OF COLOMBIA.I WOULD SAY THE ONLY SIZABLE NON WHITE GROUP IN BRAZIL ARE THE JAPANESE SINCE I THINK THEIR NUMBERS ARE CLOSE TO A MILLION IN BRAZIL.I BET BRAZIL HAS LESS THEN 100,000 BLACKS AND NEIGHBORING URUGUAY HAS WAY MORE BLACKS THEN THAT.AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE WAY MORE ADVANCED THEN AFRO BRAZILIANS TOO.HAVE YALL EVER HEARD OF BLACK COLLEGES IN BRAZIL NO BECAUSE THEY DONT EXIST.WHITES IN BRAZIL HAVE THEIR HOLIDAYS AND FESTIVITIES TO CELEBRATE THEIR WHITE HERITAGE LIKE OCTOBERFEST IN SANTA CATARINA.BLACKS IN BRAZIL HAVING NOTHING THATS EXCLUSIVELY THEIRS NOT EVEN CARNAVAL CAUSE EVEN CARNAVAL IS PREDOMINANTLY WHITE.CUBA'S AFRICAN CULTURE IS WAY STRONGER THEN BRAZIL'S PLUS BLACK CUBANS ACTUALLY EMBRACES THEIR BLACKNESS UNLIKE THESE UNCLE TOM BRAZILIANS WHO DENY THEIRS.AFRO CUBANS ARE VERY PRO BLACK AND WITHOUT THEM CUBAN MUSIC WOULD HAVE NO RHYTHM.BLACK CUBANS ARE SOME OF THE BEST SPORTS ATHLETES IN THE WORLD FROM BASEBALL AND BOXING TO VOLLEYBALL.CUBA AND THE CARIBBEAN HAVE THE STRONGEST AFRICAN CULTURE OF ANY NON AFRICAN COUNTRY.IF YOU WANT TO GO TO A COUNTRY WITH STRONG AFRICAN TIES WITHOUT EVEN GOING TO AFRICA THEN GO TO THE CARIBBEAN WHERE BLACK CULTURE IS EVIDENT EVERYWHERE THERE FROM THE LOCAL PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY BLACK UNLIKE BRAZIL, TO THE CLOTHES THEY WEAR,TO THE MUSIC TO THE FOOD.AFRO CUBAN JAZZ AND REGGAE IS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT.NOW ONTO DIVERSITY WHEN IT COMES TO TELEVISION THE U.S HAS A BROAD RANGE OF DIVERSE SHOWS THAT CATERS TO BLACKS AND HISPANICS LIKE MY WIFE AND KIDS,THE GEORGE LOPEZ SHOW,ONE ON ONE,HALF AND HALF,COSBYS,FAMILY MATTERS,THE BROTHERS GARCIA,FRESH PRINCE,THE HUGHLEYS,THE STEVE HARVY SHOW,AND THATS NOT JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG NOW BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK SITCOMS THE ONLY TIME YOU SEE A BLACK PERSON ON BRAZILIAN PROGRAMMING IS WHEN THEY ARE MAIDS OR BUTLERS FOR RICH WHITE FAMILIES ON WHAT THEY CALL NOVELAS CAUSE BLACKS IN BRAZIL STILL GOT THAT YES MASTER MENTALITY RACIAL DEMOCRACY MY AZZ ITS MORE LIKE A SLAVE DEMOCRACY AND BLACKS IN BRAZIL JUST EXCEPT THEIR ROLES CAUSE THEY DONT HAVE A VOZ ATIVA AS BRAZILIANS SAY.
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:29 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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You know what another pet peeve of the US is loaning money to countries like Brazil.
Jo, let me explain something to you no matter how lame your claim is. Race is needed in the breakdown process. Let me break down the USA for you. Black colleges, prodominately Hispanic colleges (which did you hear the news Hispanics are the largest minority in America now, there are 36.1 million Blacks and 37 million Hispanics, which is as per our Census Bureau. I'm sure some uproar will happen on both ends) anyways the reason why America breakdown races is because MONEY is delegated to certain communities. You know like Black colleges get more money if say Atlanta is proved to have more Blacks than any other race, etc etc. We know your freaking human, BUT if we looked away from RACE and went solely on Humans then some of your Portuguese ancestors and some of my White ones wouldn't classify as human but inhuman for the shit they did. Now my real point is the whole freaking medical community would never excel. Why because some ethnic groups are prown to having one of kind of health problem over another. Also we use race also for statical facts, to keep accounts and we choose to. The reason is so we can see where the freaking justice system breaks down, and the trends of an ethnic group. You may not like it doesn't mean it doesn't work. See we get to monitor if laws need to be put into place so that you immigrants and miniorites need help getting jobs, education, loans, housing. See we have laws we don't tolerate discrimation. Thats why people get to sue in America. We can't turn down people based on the color of their skin, it's against the law. These laws were put into place try and right the wrongs this country has done to certain people.
Brazil does have racsim like Marqueseazy said. I heard about your tv's, magazines, movies, and shit the city life. Man at least the immigrants and miniorities in America are allowed to be represented. I mean Latinos have thier own magazine, Blacks have theres, Asians, and every other group the flees to America with a fucking dream. Call us what you like but I don't see people not trying to come here. People have such a negative tone for Americans but are fucking quick to move here and populate our fucking states. And we allow you to. I will have to research if there is a law prohibiting Blacks from other countries from becoming citizens in Brazil. That I don't know but if it is that speaks volumes about your country compared to ours.
People keep saying America is worst then why the fuck come here? I really wish Immigration was tighter on checking people out to see if they have such communist views about our country. Why come here and use us for our hard earned money? I mean your country can't be that perfect if your leaving it. Give me a fucking break man!
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:45 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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Well according to the Brazilian government that 6% of people who say they are Black in Brazil is about 7 million people, so I don't know where you get 100,000 from. I am strictly going on articles on this site and on that Brazilian government site.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:54 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Ze
Junior Member
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Since when did Marqueseazy become brazilian?
For someone that never even touched his feet on this land he is very sure of his convictions.
(Stop pushing around with this half baked idea, it is not true, and is starting to stress my patience and cordial words as well)
To "guest"
You know why people immigrate to U.S.A., it is not because they have any kind of love to the american way of life, but because they need money. To enlighten you, they do ask if you have any kind of "comunist" view of the world, and a few other degrading and stupid questions. Also the so called immigration law that you are talking about, was extinguished before the IIWW, earlier than U.S. own actions on this matter.
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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:26 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Loco
Newbie
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Sorry Marquez, but you are crazy.
I live in Porto Alegre, a city where 80% of the population is white and there is few mixed people, but here there is 300000 blacks too.
Porto Alegre have more blacks than all Brazil together?! hehehehehehehehehehehhehehe
Our country have a big black population, stop with this shit ok! You sound like a racist.
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SEI LÁ
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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:34 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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To Ze, darling you could never "enlighten" me. I know the very reason why immigrants come to America, and as an American I find it pretty sad that people and disrespect my country and still find a reason to lie to get here. It's not to better our country or to help us, it's use our resources. But such is life, oh and the questions that are asked aren't "stupid" we have every right to know who you are. Remember it is you seeking to enter here, not the other way around. I've been asked similar questions by your Brazilian government, so let's not call the kettle black, shall we.
Oh and it wasn't me who mentioned the antiquated laws that didn't allow Blacks into Brazil. I simply stated I'd never heard this, perhaps you should re-read what was said and then gather your contentions. Other than that this diatribe is futile and senseless.
I'm still waiting on a Black Brazilian's perspective. But alas that seems fruitless as well. Don't expect me to defend my country. You better hope to everything Brazil never ends up in a financial ruins like Argentina, because Americans are ruthless when it comes to their money. We will invest but never without a return on something. Shit that would be hilarious if we ended-up owning Brazil lol. Ok no more jokes. I'm done, this is tired. I love my country and I have much respect for Brazils and Brazilians. Just don't expect me to spit back when you diss America. Capiche.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:40 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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PORTO ALEGRE DOSENT HAVE 300,000 BLACKS ITS MORE LIKE ITS JUST 300 LOL
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:56 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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I think we all need to move on. This whole discussion has turned into a whole new topic. Who cares anymore? I mean everyone keeps on insulting eachother. Who is better who is not. Please no one is perfect. Get over yourselves
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:01 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Joe Gahona
Newbie
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Ze said: "You know why people immigrate to U.S.A., it is not because they have any kind of love to the american way of life, but because they need money."
I'm sure most immigrants who come to the U.S. prefer their original "way of life" to the U.S. way of life, just as I'm sure the average American prefers his American way of life to the way of life in, say, China. It's human to prefer the way of life that you're familiar with.
So I'm not sure what your point is. If the American "way of life" is unbearable for someone (even though he is making more money here), he will leave. Those who do stay? Obviously their indifference/dislike of the American way of life is overridden by their desire to live here anyway.
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Total Posts: 13 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:28 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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I WOULD RATHER LIVE IN THE PROJECTS SOMEWHERE IN QUEENS THEN LIVE IN A BRAZILIAN FAVELA THATS FULL OF DISEASES LIKE DENGUE AND NOT TO MENTION ALL THE VIOLENCE WHERE THE DRUG TRAFFICKERS ARE ALWAYS IN A SHOOTOUT WAR WITH THE COPS.PLUS I'VE HEARD ABOUT ALL THE OLD WHITE GRINGOS WHO ARE MOSTLY EUROPEAN WHO GO TO BRAZIL TO PAY TO HAVE SEX WITH MINORS ESPECIALLY DURING CARNAVAL.BRAZIL IS A PARADISE FOR CHILD MOLESTERS AND WHITE BRAINWASHED SELF HATING BLACKS
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:26 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP
Patinho
Junior Member
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To Guest-
You know, I really like this forum. I like the people here, the interesting discussions and sometimes, even the arguments that always end with us learning something new from one another.
But then someone like you comes along. Now we all know that the issue of "race" is a very sensitive subject that must be handled with care... that aside, did you even read my post?
You said "To Patinho, one small ass town is NOT indicative of all of AMERICA. You need to get out more. There are parts of America that is void of any Whites, same goes for Blacks etc. I still feel most of you speak out of your ass and have never been past your "little town" mentality. "
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with my post. I don't even know where to begin.
First, Memphis is a major metropolitan area with a population reaching nearly 2 million inhabitants. Is that a "small ass town"?
Second, I get out just fine. If you would read my post again. I didn't say that all of America is like this. Hell, I even stated it with "But I hope I can restore some of your faith by saying that not all of America is this bad. Our city is an exception."
When I was talking to Liz in my post I said several times "here" and "our city". How the fuck does that imply "ALL" of America? I think YOU are the one that needs to learn english.
Then you go on attacking Liz for her use of the word "colored" and the fact that she felt a little uncomfortable in her situation.
The woman comes to a forum to share her experiences and opinions and she gets attacked for it. What kind of a person are you? That is what a forum is for, dumbass.
So what if she uses the word "colored"? I know some.. uuumm gee... what word should I use here.. I might get into trouble.... oh... here we go.... I know some "persons of African ancestry" that don't like the term "black", but have no problem with "colored".
I have several black freinds. When I hang out with them they call me "nigga" (as in slang for guy or freind), and have no qualms with me using the word freely with them either. However I do not use the word with everyone, due to the fact that this word coming from a white guy can be highly offensive to some. My point is, that "colored" being offensive is a matter of personal opinion.
I am sure Liz did not mean to use the word offensively. To the contrary, I found nothing in her post to be offensive. The girl was just trying to share her thoughts freely and openly... then a net nazi like you has to attack her. You make me sick. (No offense to our fellow member "Sick"
And as far as "don't speak what you can't back up". People can say whatever they want. Making mistakes and learning from them is part of life. Get over it.
I am finished with you. I find your posts to be insulting and they do not contribute a thing to this forum except bitteness and ignorance. If you continue to spout stupid things from that hole in your face, I will have no choice but to ignore you.
So in conclusion. Please try to read my short and simple post again. I used small words, so I am sure you should not have a problem comprehending it by the 3rd or 4th time. I eagerly await your intelligent response.
Have a nice day, sir.
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"Quem quer viver faz magica"
--Guimaraes Rosa
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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 12:21 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
Patinho
Junior Member
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P.S.- Grow some balls and pick a name... you are giving all of the other "Guest" posters a bad image.
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"Quem quer viver faz magica"
--Guimaraes Rosa
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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 12:28 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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BRAZILIANS ARE THE SOUTH AMERICAN VERSION OF REDNECKS THATS HOW RACIST THEY ARE BECAUSE BRAZILIANS HAVE SAYINGS THAT BLACK WOMEN ARE ONLY GOOD FOR BEING COOKS IN THE KITCHEN.SOME OF MY FRIENDS WHO HAVE VISITED BRAZIL BEFORE SAID WHEN THEY WENT TO HIGH RISE BUILDINGS THEY WERE TO ENTER THE BACK WHERE THE MAIDS ENTERED EVEN THOUGH THEY WERENT MAIDS BUT BUSINESS PEOPLE.WHEN NELSON MANDELA RETURNED TO SOUTH AFRICA AFTER HIS TRIP TO BRAZIL HE DENOUNCED BRAZIL AS A RACIAL DEMOCRACY SAYING IT COULDNT BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.THE SMALL AFRO BRAZILIAN MINORITY IS TOO SCARED TO STAND UP TO BRAZIL'S MASSIVE WHITE MAJORITY.BRAZILIAN TELEVISION SHOULD BE CALLED WET WHITE ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION.THE BLACK POPULATION IN BRAZIL IS SO SMALL THAT IF YOUR AN AFRICAN AMERICAN AND YOU GO THERE YOU STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB AND IT WOULD BE A VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FEELING NOW A WHITE AMERICAN WOULD EASILY BLEND IN BRAZIL AND IF YOUR JAPANESE TOO.SO HOW CAN BRAZIL HAVE THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN THE WORLD WHEN MOST BRAZILIANS ARENT EVEN BLACK AT ALL 94% OF BRAZILIANS ARE NONBLACK I THINK THE PEOPLE WHO DID THAT B.S CENSUS MUST BE SMOKING CRACK BECAUSE THEY ARE OVER EXAGGERATING CAUSE BRAZIL DOES NOT HAVE MORE BLACKS THEN THE U.S,AFRICA,OR THE CARIBBEAN HECK NOT EVEN EUROPE CAUSE EVEN LONDONHAVE THEIR BLACK COMMUNITY AND THATS BRIXTON THATS WHERE THE JAMAICAN DESCENDENTS LIVE BUT A BLACK COMMUNITY IN BRAZIL DOSENT EVEN EXIST BRAZIL DOSENT HAVE THEIR OWN VERSION OF HARLEM NOT EVEN THE FAVELAS CAUSE MOST FAVELADOS ARE POOR WHITE TRASH AND POOR MESTICOS FROM THE NORTHEAST BUT NOT BLACK.BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK ENREPEUNERS LIKE THE U.S HAS AND BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK HISTORY MONTH LIKE THE U.S BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK BEAUTY PAGENTS LIKE THE U.S BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK COLLEGES LIKE THE U.S BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK PROGRAMMING ON TV LIKE THE U.S AND BRAZIL HAS NO IMPORTANT BLACK POLITICIANS WORKING NEXT TO THE PRESIDENT LIKE THE U.S HAS WITH COLLIN POWELL AND CONDOZOLA RICE WORKING SIDE BY SIDE WITH BUSH SI HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT BRAZIL DOES NOT PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH THEY DO NOT PRACTICE DIVERSITY SO THEY HAVE NO RIGHT IN CALLING THEMSELVES A RACIAL DEMOCRACY CAUSE THATS A BIG FAT LIE THERE NO EXAMPLES TO PROVE BRAZIL EVEN COMES CLOSE TO A RACIAL DEMOCRACY ATLEAST THE U.S GIVES BLACKS AND HISPANICS THE CHANCE TO COMPETE AGAINST WHITES WITH THINGS LIKE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION SO THAT IT CAN BE AN EQUAL PLAYING FIELD FOR BLACKS BUT HOPEFULLY BUSH WONT SCREW THAT UP.HOW COME BRAZIL HAD AFFIRMITIVE ACTION HUH BECAUSE THE WHITE POLITICIANS IN BRASILIA WOULD NEVER LET THAT HAPPEN.IN BRAZIL THE WHITE MAN ONLY USES BLACK WOMEN FOR SEX AND FOR BEING THEIR MAIDS AND HOUSECLEANERS JUST LIKE SLAVERY DAYS ITS 2003 BUT BRAZIL IS STILL STUCK IN 1803
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:11 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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The majority of Liz's post was not a sharing of experiences but a JUDGEMENT of people.
There is a massive difference.
She tried to reduce 450 years of African-American history to rap music.
I've read about 11 books on Brazilian history before trying to understand that country.
I challenge her to name one book on American or African-American history that she has read to try to understand this people that she judges.
I could cut and paste 4 parts of her post that were offensive.
She is probably a nice person but I don't pander to ignorance.
And I question her judgement of Tennessee. You said that you have black friends. Why are they friends with you and not with her? Introduce them to her.
I will tell you one thing about my people. We can sense snobbery in anyone. We can discern when someone has turned up their noses. When someone has a 'tude' (attitude).
And we accept anyone who even makes half an effort to accept us. 'Cause that's how we roll.
I question totally her generalization of African-Americans in Tennessee....let alone the whole of America.
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:14 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
stark114
Newbie
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But getting back to the subject, it seems to be difficult to find any Black Brazilians who will post here. Are there any Black Americans who has been down to Brazil? What were your experiences? I keep getting conflicting accounts. My brother's best friend went down to Rio 2 years ago and said that American brothers are well liked down there. But I'm not sure how much being American had to do with this. Comments?
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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:18 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
Guest
Anonymous
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Ok Patinho, it would be really hard for me to give an intelligent response when you've stepped below my level. Let's see what's your problem, you called me "dumbass" and several other things. Now if I were to step to the low level you've gone to I'd be considered even worse, because Americans ya know we are horrible to pick on the lowly. Anyways you display such primitive ways. Can't come with it so attack the very thing you say you like about this forum. First you say your done with me, then at the end of your post, you tell me you await my response. Which is it? I suggest you pick-up a book on debating, because clearly you don't know how to.
I'm entitled to my opinion. This is a free forum. I am allowed to counter, disagree with, or agree with anything posted, hence the "public" part of this forum. I read the rules before posting--there were none. Just that "Brazzil.com, doesn't take any responsibility". I choose to be under "guest" for my own reason. I could choose a name, but to be honest I rarely do read the forum, I actually do subscribe to the magazine. Besides it's MY choice. Remeber that, a name doesn't add more validity to your statement. Anyways classic behavior of a person who has no legs to stand on. Find any reason to attack, and I'm sorry if you feel I make the "other guest" look bad, that's life. Because right now you make Brasilians look kinda well, nevermind.
Liz is an adult (I hope), I would think she could speak for herself. Please don't decipher her for me, I can read and I did read your responses and hers several times before responding. I hope that makes you feel better.
Now, I won't doubt that SOME Blacks don't mind being called "colored" and I know they use the "N" word (see us White Americans are usually politically correct) amongs themselves. I find it silly, because I come from the "old school" and was big in civil rights, anyways I know it does exsist. BUT let me explain something to you, get a spot on national American TV and call ALL Blacks "colored" and see what happens. On that I rest my case. I'm a white man defending his fellow brothers and sisters. A Black person in Nashville is very different than a Black person in New York City or even Florida.
You live in a small town. 2 million is nothing compared to the 8 million where I live, or the 15 million my mother lives in. Man travel around America and get a feel for things.
The thing is I want to learn, but I've only read insults after insults. If a Black person came on here and found Liz's comments about their contribution to History and the word "colored" would you attack them too? I doubt you or your friend Liz have read a book about the history of this country you now reside in. I believe you go strictly on what you hear. Prove me otherwise.
Oh and there is no need for me to add to anything. I stand behind my previous posts as "guest". I could lay an assault of verbal attacks on you P buddy, but why? I will be the bigger person here and try and learn something.
Now I await your intelligent response.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 6:21 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
Tais
Newbie
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Hmm
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Total Posts: 8 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:28 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik
Newbie
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Two quick points
1) @MARQUESEAZY - I have many poor white friends in Brazil. Some live in favelas. They are NOT "poor white trash". They are some of the most admirable people I have ever met.
You should not use the same language as the bigots, the racists and the elitists. It makes you no different from them.
2) I will try to e-mail my black friends in Brazil to give their input. The problem is that...though some have e-mail addresses not many speak english nor read english and this site might be beyond them. There are a few in Washington D.C. and I'll e-mail them.
There are two types of African-Americans who go to Brazil. A mostly male group who are just as much part of the sexual tourism as any other group of people (we are not all noble people).
And there is a large culturally conscious group. First of all Americans tend to receive a degree of respect from Brazilians in general. These African-Americans receive much respect from Afro-Brazilians. My friends from New York had rented a house in Boca Do Rio (Salvador) where I now live. The maid who worked for them was shocked because they called her "irmá" (sister) when they referred to her. My friends were nervous about hiring a maid (they felt that they were exploiting them) but other Brazilians made it clear that these women needed the work and would welcome the chance to work for someone who actually respected them. To them she is just another sister friend.
Among our group we always use the term "irmão" (brother) when addressing other Brazilians.
But I also think that we African-Americans have to realize that the hard divide that used to exist between white and black Americans does not always exist between the various colors in Brazil. I've had some bad experiences with white Brazilians and I've had many good ones. My white friends have bent over backward and have doubled up in one bedroom just to give me a room to myself.
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:44 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
Tais
Newbie
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What I would like to know is how can someone you've never met make you sick?
There are excellent points from several people here. I did find some offensive but for the most part everyone made sense.
My parents are both Black and from Brasil. I wasn't raised in Brazil so I am afraid I can't comment.
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Total Posts: 8 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:44 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
Tais
Newbie
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Adrianerik: You have made some excellent points. I like some of the points made by others but you seem to have stay focused to the original question. I will see if my parents will come to the board and answer or I can answer for them.
My parents were raised in Salvador and moved when they had my brothers and I to London. My father actually got a job with a company there. Later he was transferred to Los Angeles California, where they still live and where I was raised. I live in Miami now. I have only been to Brasil on visits. I feel because I lack long periods there I personally can not answer some of the questions asked. My parents however may be able to give some insight. Now the conversation seems to be going upward. I would like to learn myself.
I will say my parents have always taught me that I was a Black woman with parents from Brasil. I will have to ask them why this was this way and if it had anything to do with race in Brasil. This is going to be informative on my end because I have never had this talk with my parents.
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Total Posts: 8 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:52 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
Loco
Newbie
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Marquez...you are crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brazil received more africans than all American Continent together, we have a big black population.
I live in Porto Alegre and I can say that there is 300000 black people living here.
Go to Bahia, you will find millions...
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SEI LÁ
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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:06 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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PEOPLE FROM BAHIA ARENT BLACK THE
Debate
Jan/Feb 2003
How Hard Is to Be Black in Brazil?
A total of 271 postings